But your argument about God "cheating" on dice is only valid if there were any way in which dice could come up with any result apart from God.
Have you ever tried doing scissor-paper-stone at random until the one you really want happens? It's not easy. And the only way to cheat is by pretending you didn't want every reult you got.
I wouldn't mind even if you were. But why not join in the conversation at http://prosblogion.ektopos.com/archives/2012/02/prosblogion-rev.html ?
But your argument about God "cheating" on dice is only valid if there were any way in which dice could come up with any result apart from God.
Classical theism would tell us that nothing can do anything apart from God. So somehow God would need to empower the die to come up with random results, which God actualizes.
Have you ever tried doing scissor-paper-stone at random until the one you really want happens? It's not easy.
Sooner or later I've won at rock-scissors-paper (as we say on this side of the Pond), regardless of the strategy I've used.
My point is that it's hard to lose if you're the only player.
Yes, but I'm assuming that it is possible for God to make the universe, or natural processes, or random processes, a player, also. Of course, it might not be possible. But if it isn't possible, then we have the problem of things looking like they obey statistical probabilities, when in fact God causing all the outcomes. Does that mean that God is just making it look like there is some stochastic process, when in reality there really isn't one?
"Does that mean that God is just making it look like there is some stochastic process, when in reality there really isn't one?"
Remember the sequence here: (1) Every human has always noticed events without predictable cause.
(2) Scripture says that even events like these are under God's control (casting lots, sparrows falling to ground, etc).
(3) MUCH later people observe that there are statistical patterns surrounding such events.
So you explore the way God works, and then accuse him of cheating for working that way? "Chance" is only a value-loaded word for "complexity". This whole post looks random if you don't understand the meaning.
"Chance" is only a value-loaded word for "complexity".
You might be correct, Jon. In which case, much if not all of the physical world is completely determined by God. It's just not clear to me, at this time, that you are indeed correct.
6 comments:
I'm not stalking you!
But your argument about God "cheating" on dice is only valid if there were any way in which dice could come up with any result apart from God.
Have you ever tried doing scissor-paper-stone at random until the one you really want happens? It's not easy. And the only way to cheat is by pretending you didn't want every reult you got.
Jon: I'm not stalking you!
I wouldn't mind even if you were. But why not join in the conversation at http://prosblogion.ektopos.com/archives/2012/02/prosblogion-rev.html
?
But your argument about God "cheating" on dice is only valid if there were any way in which dice could come up with any result apart from God.
Classical theism would tell us that nothing can do anything apart from God. So somehow God would need to empower the die to come up with random results, which God actualizes.
Have you ever tried doing scissor-paper-stone at random until the one you really want happens? It's not easy.
Sooner or later I've won at rock-scissors-paper (as we say on this side of the Pond), regardless of the strategy I've used.
My point is that it's hard to lose if you're the only player.
My point is that it's hard to lose if you're the only player.
Yes, but I'm assuming that it is possible for God to make the universe, or natural processes, or random processes, a player, also. Of course, it might not be possible. But if it isn't possible, then we have the problem of things looking like they obey statistical probabilities, when in fact God causing all the outcomes. Does that mean that God is just making it look like there is some stochastic process, when in reality there really isn't one?
"Does that mean that God is just making it look like there is some stochastic process, when in reality there really isn't one?"
Remember the sequence here:
(1) Every human has always noticed events without predictable cause.
(2) Scripture says that even events like these are under God's control (casting lots, sparrows falling to ground, etc).
(3) MUCH later people observe that there are statistical patterns surrounding such events.
So you explore the way God works, and then accuse him of cheating for working that way? "Chance" is only a value-loaded word for "complexity". This whole post looks random if you don't understand the meaning.
"Chance" is only a value-loaded word for "complexity".
You might be correct, Jon. In which case, much if not all of the physical world is completely determined by God. It's just not clear to me, at this time, that you are indeed correct.
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